June 26, 2009

Foolish talk & empty words

Now I know why I am uncomfortable with playful banter; the Bible says it is not appropriate behavior for Christians.

This is a surprise in some ways. The passage this comes from isn’t usually translated that way. Instead, the Greek word is put into English as foolish talking, a phrase wide open to all sorts of interpretations. However, the actual word is not about humorous insults (which is easy to see as inappropriate), but refined light mockery or banter, that doesn’t seem so bad.
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. (Ephesians 5:3-7, italics mine)
I’ve no argument with this passage, but as I read it today it seemed that “foolish talking and coarse jesting” needed more definition. With some research, I learned some new words and a little history. For one thing, the city of Ephesus had a reputation. Its people were “well-turned” or ready at repartee, also known as “jocose” and “persiflage” and “badinage” all words meaning witty conversation. In Ephesus, this was far from being censured; in fact, the Ephesians thought such banter was a pleasant accomplishment.

The Greek word translated “coarse jesting” is eutrapelia and found nowhere else in the New Testament. The commentaries say this word implies a particular versatility which turns about and adapts itself, without regard to principle, to the shifting circumstances of the moment, and to the varying moods of those with whom it may deal. In other words, it is speaking according to the world, not according to the Spirit and principles of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:8 uses a different word, but it conveys the same idea that “filthy communication” and “foolish talking” are a false refinement. These words describe conversations that are seasoned with a selfish, “look at how clever I am” attitude. Christians are not to talk like that. Instead, our words are to be seasoned with grace.

In Ephesians 5, God challenges me to imitate God and love others as Christ loved me. The love of Christ is forgiving, unconditional, and self-sacrificing, not shallow, selfish, sensual, sexual, or attention-getting. Witty conversation has nothing in it that reflects the love of God.

Verse four forbids foolish talk and witty banter, but offers an alternative — giving thanks. 1 Thessalonians 5:18 says, “In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.” Today’s devotional says, “When we are thankful for everything, we step outside ourselves, because thanksgiving is directed toward God.”

My husband doesn’t like playful repartee either because in his world it is often peppered with swearing. He finds that being thankful helps him in several ways, but also has an interesting effect on the conversation around him. People either turn from their jesting and swearing and offer more thoughtful and thankful comments, or they are so annoyed that they walk away.

Today’s last lesson in word meanings says that “rather giving of thanks” is a joyful play on sounds in Greek. The word is “eucharistia” and is contrasted with “eutrapelia.” While refined “jesting” and subtle humor sometimes offend tender feelings, “giving of thanks” offers a genuine cheerfulness of spirit. For me, it is a wonderful alternative to any good feeling that comes from light banter and I need to practice thankfulness much more than I do.

One other thought; God does not forbid fun. He is the author of joy, but warns me that this empty chatter puts self on a pedestal and could offend others. Talking this way is foreign to the nature of His Son. Even though I suspect practicing thankfulness instead of witty banter could result in having labels slapped on me by those who consider such repartee is an accomplishment, I would rather be like Jesus.

35 comments:

Karin said...

Excellent admonition! Good reminder.

Anonymous said...

It is very interesting for me to read this article. Thank author for it. I like such themes and everything connected to this matter. I would like to read more on that blog soon.

Albert Fajarito said...

This article was a blessing. Thank God for giving you the insight and desire to do this article. May God our loving Father continue to bless your household, Peace, mercy and truth be unto you and your family.

Anonymous said...

This is something I came across when I was looking for something rather stupid.But, this is something really edifying and it makes you think and learn. I appreciate the much put effort.

Elsie Montgomery said...

Thank you for the kind comments. These are good lessons, but hard to learn. God bless your desire to obey Him.

Anonymous said...

Can a christian be a comedian?

Elsie Montgomery said...

Seems as if God has a sense of humor, so why not -- with a caveat. Some comedians are crass or make jokes at the expense of others. That is never funny. I suppose that the more important issues are what is humor, why do we make jokes and who or what are we laughing at?

Anonymous said...

I do appreciate your your views on this topic. I can say the same exact thing: "Now I know why I am uncomfortable with playful banter; the Bible says it is not appropriate behavior for Christians." I mostly understand where you are coming from and the subject of foolish taking/course jesting has been something I've been struggling with for a long time, trying to understand God's precise meaning in this portion of Scripture. It may not be so, but I truly believe that your viewpoint in this subject is truly a confirmation of what I so long believed. Bless your heart, Sister. I pray the Lord to allow us to seek and continue seeking REVELATION from God and receive wisdom to discern between good and evil according to the Lord God whom we serve. May the Lord bless you, your spouse, and your entire family. His grace be with you all.

Anonymous said...

The best way to translate the bible is with the bible.
I think you miss a very key point ..
I believe the correct way to view this chapter is :
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness...neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting...no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater
Since Filthiness is is the first Sin mentioned above and below then I believe this would refer to seductive sexual talk or innuendo meant to entice a person to commit the sin .
foolish talking- Likewise would be enticing or speech meant to lure someone into uncleanness.
Coarse jesting would be luring someone into coveting or idolatry .
I think filthy language out of the mouth covers bad jokes and other things . But In my reading Filthiness would be like proverbs 5 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey,
And her mouth is smoother than oil;
and may other admonitions
Just a thought

Elsie Montgomery said...

I agree that the Bible is the best way to interpret the Bible. You are using the context, which is important. I didn't think that I left out the point that you make about sexual talk being foolish, however I tried to show that the original words went beyond the obvious by also considering the context of the times in which this was written. The Greek words used and the situation in Ephesus seem to refer to more than just filthy talk. So also does the previous chapter of Ephesians... "let no unwholesome words come out of your mouth" instead words that edify and minister grace. "Clean" talk can be also self-centered, not Christ-centered. As James says, and I'm certain we agree, the tongue is really hard to control!

Christianne said...

"Anonymous", who commented on April 12th, was very gentile in offering a difference of opinion. I admire them for that.
In the center of my heart somewhere, I've also questioned "foolish talk" the way the author defines it. Some use it and it seems harmless because they are humble and fun loving people. On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who has a very dry sense of humor and is extremely witty, but that wit turns to sharp rebuke quickly if he feels someone is confrontational about it. That makes me think that it has become a sort of wall of protection or source of security to possible past hurts. If such is the case, it could be protecting a root of unforgiveness which is a dangerous thing. Our actions can always be defined by the fruit they bear. Rude (smart-alecky), misleading (joking), provoking (teasing) and haughty (judgmental) talk defy God's truth, humility, love and grace. For me, that is clear enough. In my own life, I've been guilty of justifying behaviors that seem too difficult to change or seem harmless because I can't see the way that they might have hurt or misled someone else. But that doesn't make it right and it doesn't justify my actions at God's final judgement. I've also come to the difficult knowledge that any time I feel led to "reason" why one of my behaviors is not "improper for God's Holy people", I may as well face that it is improper. Reasoning is a fleshly attribute and my flesh doesn't like being refined by fire. This is also just a thought from my own experiences. I'm by no means a Biblical scholar.

Elsie Montgomery said...

Good thoughts, Christianne. AMEN!

NaturalLova said...

I really appreciate reading your blog I was going through my daily scripture and I am in the book of Ephesians 5 and the speaking of coarse joking came up and I said wow. It made me reflect on a discernment that I had about someone speaking around me and I did not entertain the wording and the person I apologize to me about their behavior around me. But still I felt she didn't understand her true doing. We have to feed on the word of God and Christ and have discernment everyday when it comes to living our daily lives.

God Bless Luv and your family

Peace and Blessings

-NaturalLova

NaturalLova said...

This was a very helpful read and Thank You again for sharing!

Christianne said...

Now the difficult side of the issue is that we use the Word to judge and refine ourselves and not as weapons to judge others with. Nowhere does the Word of God say to use scripture to exalt ourselves above others or to push their nose in their wrong-doings, but rather that we correct WITH LOVE. I struggle with this as well. If we can't "correct with love" then it's best to just take it to God in prayer.

Sincerely Susan said...

I was looking online for definitions and what the Bible says about foolish jesting, and I came to this blog. I have a friend that we are mentoring, and his foolish jesting (continual comments) are a trial to me. I am trying my best to love and encourage, but am finding this a challenge. Does anyone have insight into how to love on people, who perpetually make silly jests (it is not gross or perverse, but just more or less a flow of nonsensical remarks). I am taking this as a personal challenge to me, to respond in a loving manner (refine me) so I can more properly address the situation in a more helpful (right-spirited) way, to profit his life.

Any helpful suggestions?

Elsie Montgomery said...

Susan, I've also friends who do that. In one case, the person is slightly autistic and does not know how to make appropriate social conversation. Another is very insecure and humor seems to be her way of coping. From what you say, the other person is not mocking God or deliberately being foolish. I'd suggest to get to know this person well enough to talk about the 'why' of the jesting rather than it is happening. If you can understand, then it will not bother you as much and maybe God will give you opportunity to minister also. Also, allow God to use this to develop patience in your own life. Start thanking Him for the chance to grow in grace and be more like Jesus because of this challenge. Hope that helps!

Anonymous said...

Interesting comments by all. The question of "foolish talk" was a question presented in my Life Group several years ago. No one in the group, including myself, could give an answer.

A few years ago there was in my church an extremely talented music director, one of many, (I attend a megachurch) was hired right off of Broadway, NY. In rehearsals he kept up a continual banter of quips and asides that kept everyone laughing. I appreciated his funny remarks until he began to say things that made light of our Lord.

That ended my enjoyment of his remarks. Eventually he divorced his wife and went back to New York leaving me with an uncertain feeling about his salvation. Any comments?

Elsie Montgomery said...

Without contact information, I can only respond here.

What a sad story. Your director sounds like a person who uses humor to cover insecurity (just a guess on my part) and to redirect attention away from his 'real' life. While we really cannot know about his salvation (we all make mistakes, sometimes big ones) it is safe to say that he had some lessons to learn about transparency, relationships, and honoring God. Hopefully the humiliation of failure in his marriage brought him to the foot of the Cross. We all need to abide there!

Cecil said...

Great article!!! Just what I needed.. I just experienced being joked at, at my own expense. It really hurts..
In answer to the question above, "Can a Christian be a comedian?" I think yes.. You can always make jokes just don't make fun of others. And don't throw jokes at the expense of another.

Elsie Montgomery said...

Thank you, Cecil.

If this is any consolation, you are in good company -- Jesus is joked at (also cursed) by millions. As we grow into His likeness, identification with His suffering will be part of our experience. Remember that Paul considered it worthy to lose all he had so he "may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and may share His sufferings, becoming like Him in His death" (Philippians 3:10).

This is painful, yet He draws us closer...

Ana said...

Hi,
I don't quite understand and I'm so confused about this verse from Ephesians 5:4 about "jesting". I've read some commentaries and also some articles on this subject and some people say it is plain wrong to ever joke(even clean innocent joke), tease someone and that wit and humor is mostly not ok, that yes, we can smile and be cheerful but we
shouldn't joke. And that it is totally out of place considering the Holy God that we serve.Other commentaries and articles said that it's only foolish, inappropriate jokes at the expense of others or joking in excess that we should avoid and that humor, clean joking, fun and even loving teasing among family or friends are fine and good.
I'd like to joke but I also want to please the Lord, I'm just very confused what the Holy Spirit really said there. At the same time I think I would be very disappointed if I found out that God doesn't want us to joke at all! That I would find terrifindand burdensome, especially because others do it, and I mean committed christians, great missionaries etc. They joked, laughed and even teased their spouses or friends.
What's your view on all this? Do you think Jesus ever joked with His disciples?
I don't want to be some cheerful but always serious person, but again, if that's what the Lord wants I don't see any other way..
Thank you for this article and God bless,
Ana

Elsie Montgomery said...

Hello Ana,
I understand your questions and confusion. In studying this, I tried to point out that 'jesting' is more about why we are doing it than trying to define what kind of humor is forbidden. Selfish gain, selfish promotion, any words that try to impress others with 'look how clever I am' fit best with the context of this verse and with the historical background. It also fits with our culture and social life. We say things that draw attention to ourselves or try to impress others. It is listed with other inappropriate behaviors because in the mind of God, all selfishness is unlike Jesus. not just the obvious things, but the intentions and motivations that others cannot see. You know how easily a joke/jest/humorous remark can give you a sense of being on center stage. If it does that, it is better to not do it. But if we can make other laugh, feel more comfortable, or bring out the joy of Jesus to them, then a cheerful word is like good medicine. Think about motive and intention and ask God to make those clear. But don't analyze too much --- the world needs more laughter! If you want to talk about this more, send me an email. Mine is in my profile. Hugs.

¡Heavenly Good said...

Foolish Talking vs Clean Humor

While reading the book of Ephesians coming across Eph.5:4, I was having mix emotions about this matter... . I prayed to the Lord to help me out with the interpretation of what is that in the heart, that people speak, joke, gets offended at and constantly, and/or even accuses from time to time each other, also I realized, of course! that sometimes all this comes from the enemy's repertoire... .
Wanting to share some founding/learnings and very interesting points of view that reflex sincerity, reality and truthfulness from believers vs just human been's prospective's will make the difference: That we all need improvement... "Yep".
So, what Paul is referring to "foolish talking" is when people are talking to hurt without repercussions {{{hurting people hurt back}}}.
Also be watchful for the way that the clean joke is paraphrased, the timing and sometime some people does not like funny talking around them [[[shhh!!! baptized in lemon juice = maybe [PLEASE, do not take it personal]]]] so, be cautious!!!.
Lets check It Out Some Other Believers Facts:
1} by:squidink, Senior Member/Oregon, USA 2017\see Wikipedia on dark humor vs "biting humor"; which is something that is funny, but points out some weakness or proclivity on the part of somebody or something, but is not necessarily a subject that normally is treated seriously.
2} by; Martha Rumimper S. Africa: As we ponder over the multiple manifestations of humor, we can conclude that it is a delightful gift from our bountiful heavenly Father. Nevertheless, it must be used in moderation and in accord with sound judgment. When this is done, a sense of humor can add zest and sparkle to our daily lives.
4} Humor is helpful in coping with difficult situations. The Encyclopædia Britannica says concerning laughter: “One might call it a luxury reflex. Its only function seems to be to provide relief from tension. . . . The explosive exhalations of laughter seem designed to ‘puff away’ surplus tension in a kind of respiratory gymnastics.”
5} Humor can brighten up even an apparently hopeless situation. Readers Digest of May 1973 relates an experience of psychiatrist Viktor E. Frankl, who was imprisoned in a German concentration camp during World War II:

“Piled on top of malnutrition, exhaustion and disease, suicidal despair was the big killer in these citadels of degradation.

“As a psychiatrist, Frankl knew that humor was one of the soul’s best survival weapons, since it can create, if only for moments, aloofness from horror. Therefore, Frankl made a rule that once each day he and his friend must invent and tell an amusing anecdote, specifically about something which could happen after their liberation... . Hosanna!!!

Elsie Montgomery said...

Heavenly Good... thanks for your comments. This passage does not seem to be about forbidding humor or laughter -- as Proverbs says, Laughter is good medicine. It is more about using humor with the wrong motives, either to hurt others as you say, or to elevate self which the Ephesians were good at. Some even use it to respond to difficult circumstances which may require compassion and thoughtfulness rather than a joke. (This happened to me this week). The Lord continually elevates 'being' and motivation over 'doing' to make us examine our hearts. Most of us don't like 'why' questions, yet He often asks them!

Unknown said...

Jews are often entertaining in a funny way

Unknown said...

So is all stupid talk forbidden? Does this mean calling my friend a poopy head is a sin? I also made a joke where I said, I am wearing a mask, it's called skin. Is this sinful? I need examples here. Because I like being silly via stupid humor. Do all my jokes need to be something highly sophisticated? I understand coarse joking no vulgar joking, I understand trash talking with ill intent. I understand no sexual jokes.

Unknown said...

Also my friend said something about a box. I commented to be stupid not to be clever, you are a box. My attitude isn't to be clever or ill-intent. I say it out of a brotherly love.

Elsie Montgomery said...

To Unknown,
I suggest you re-read the post and the above comments and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you if you are being motivated by Him or by the old nature when you wonder if what you say is sinful or not. I cannot know your motives or attitudes nor know if what you say to others is a jibe or building them up. Psalm 139:23-24.

Unknown said...

So you can't provide any examples? Same unknown. There are two types of clever
Clever to look like a bully and just a clever joke you came up with. Which one is it? A slip of the tongue happens but if saying you are a box just for stupid humor is a sin I might as well give up laughter and jokes. I have a level 1 autism disorder so I need literal clarification. Mockery makes sense. Don't go dadadadda at someone. It would have been nice to see examples of Jesus sense of humor. And what do you mean by playful banter? Sexual banter or any kind? Even stupid humor can be seen as playful banter. Playful banter doesn't have one definition.

Elsie Montgomery said...

Unknown: I understand your need for an example, but the issue is more about the intent behind the words. Only the speaker and the Holy Spirit know the heart. I could say something as a compliment or say the same words in sarcasm. One builds up, the other hurts. Or I could offer information to be helpful or with the intent of showing off how smart I am. Again, ask the Lord to make this clear to you. I know autism makes this a challenge, but examples are not going to clarify why anyone says things, only that they said them. The Ephesians were noted for speaking in such a way to show how clever they are. This is fleshy, worldly, and not the way of grace. If you feel guilty or unsure that your way of speaking honors Jesus, that could be a clue. If not, then ask someone close to you if your words are barbs and hurtful, or just funny, praying always for wisdom and God's blessing.

Unknown said...

Intent can come out in any form. I can say an insult but not mean it. I can call my brother an idiot when he does something goofy and what I mean by it is, you goofball. Do my actual words count too?

Elsie Montgomery said...

Hi again, I understand that autistic disorders make it difficult to grasp non-verbal communication. However, if your heart is kind and good, your words will come out that way. What might be an "insult" word can be a term of endearment. "Oh, you goofball" could be said with a critical intent, or with a loving tone. The words that flow from your heart are usually what people hear, not the words you say but what you mean by them. Does that make sense? I could say "I like you" and be kind about it, or say "I like YOU" as if that is totally impossible. This is just one example.
From what you are telling me, you don't seem to have any reason to worry about your words because you are aware of your intentions. Your brother will know if you are being mean or not being mean by non-verbal clues. In most cases, there are no rules. Jesus said not to call people fools but He also said that what is in the heart will come out and that is more important. He looks at the intent behind the words. I wish I could help you with non-verbal communication, but this is even more difficult to do in writing rather than face to face. My prayers that the Lord will help you with this.

Unknown said...

Thank you so much! I will just do k.i.s.s keep it simply stupid.

Elsie Montgomery said...

Oh,wonderful. I hope to see you in glory and we shall have a great conversation! Big blessings from me and from Jesus!